February 17, 2013

Clattenburg and Moen to initiate CL Matchweek 2

UEFA has appointed Norwegian talent Svein Oddvar Moen and England's aspiring Mark Clattenburg to oversee next week's UEFA Champions League matches to be held on Tuesday, 19 February. While 1979 born Moen will return to Emirates Stadium, where he had already refereed twice, to handle the tie between Arsenal FC and Bayern München, Clattenburg will head the Iberian duel between FC Porto and Málaga CF.

Svein Oddvar Moen (Norway) (c) ZIMBIO



(ENG) Arsenal FC
20:45
Bayern München (GER)
19 February 2013, 20:45 CET – Emirates Stadium, London, England
Referee
Svein Oddvar Moen (NOR)
Assistant Referee 1
Kim Thomas Haglund (NOR)
Assistant Referee 2
Frank Andås (NOR)
Fourth Official
Sven Erik Midthjell (NOR)
Additional Assistant Referee 1
Ken Henry Johnsen (NOR)
Additional Assistant Referee 2
Dag Vidar Hafsås (NOR)
UEFA Referee Observer
Vítor Melo Pereira (POR)
UEFA Delegate
Jan Damgaard (DEN)
UEFA Referee Liaison Officer
John Edward Martin (ENG)


(POR) FC Porto
20:45
Málaga CF (ESP)
12 February 2013, 20:45 CET – Estádio do Dragão, Porto, Portugal
Referee
Mark Clattenburg (ENG)
Assistant Referee 1
Simon Beck (ENG)
Assistant Referee 2
Stuart Burt (ENG)
Fourth Official
Simon Long (ENG)
Additional Assistant Referee 1
Lee Probert (ENG)
Additional Assistant Referee 2
Mike Dean (ENG)
UEFA Referee Observer
Alfredo Trentalange (ITA)
UEFA Delegate
Bernd Barutta (GER)
UEFA Referee Liaison Officer
Antonio José Garrido Da Silva (POR)

93 Comments:

  1. Why Clattenburg without his preselected assistant Child? A change?
    Having Trentalange as observer, could also mean that this is a test for Brazil 2014.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Yes interesting question. Perhaps it could also mean that Atkinson gets no k.o. match in CL..Burt normally went with him.
    And have a look at Trentalange's, Mikkelsen's and Riley's matches in UEFA competitions. They normally observe pre-list officials and that must have a sense..

    ReplyDelete
  3. Mohamed A.Fattah17/2/13 15:55

    By the way please find below CAF super cup referee

    Al Ahly ( EGY ) – Leyobard (CON)
    Referee : Bakary Papa Gassama
    23/02/2012.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Excellent appointment for Gassama, another important step after a good AFCON 2013.

      Delete
    2. Mohamed A.Fattah18/2/13 09:18

      I agree with you chefren.He was deserved the AFCON final but now good reward for him. On the other hand what's your opinion about Rizzoli yesterday on Firontina - Inter ..... I Think he could get CL match next week on MAN Utd - REAL Clashe... What do you think ?

      Delete
    3. Now he is going to officiate a match in India on next week, I don't know if you have read the news somewhere here on our blog. Match will be on next Saturday, 23/02.
      And.. I agree with you, I'm also sure that he is appointed for a match in CL 2ne leg, probably Manchester United - Real Madrid.
      Yesterday in Fiorentina-Inter overall ok but there were doubts for a possible handball by Pizarro prior to 3-0 goal.

      Delete
    4. Mohamed A.Fattah18/2/13 09:37

      Chefren ..... I need your mail id pls...
      my mail mohd.gps@gmail.com

      Delete
    5. Ok, I will write a mail to you later!
      Regards.

      Delete
  4. Anonymous17/2/13 16:56

    Moen? It's amazing decision, I think

    ReplyDelete
  5. The big clash in Saudi Arabia between Al-Shabab and Al-Hilal will be refereed by Swiss crew leaded by Stéphan Studer with Jean-Paul Rémy and Bruno Zurbrugg as assistants. Fourth official will be Marai Al-Awaji.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Collum is appointed for Galatasaray - Schalke, as I guessed.

    http://www.tff.org/default.aspx?pageID=267&ftxtID=17335

    ReplyDelete
  7. Mohamed A.Fattah18/2/13 09:41

    Very good app. for Collum as he should demonstrate the best performance in his career as Colina will observe him....

    I think Milan - Barca : Damir Skomina ( SVN)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Skomina in my opinion is diffcult since he got Milan many times in the last seasons, I confirm my guess: Pavel Kralovec. Would be probably a brave appointment, for a new Elite referee, but totally deserved, considering also that he got a very important top clas in group stage and UEFA was content with that penalty at the end.

      Delete
    2. Its Thompson Milan Barca
      and galatasaray-schalke collum

      Delete
    3. Thanks Kika!
      So, a "Scottish Wenesday" ;)
      Very interesting. Deserved appointment for Thomson.

      Delete
    4. That's nice!
      Here the appointments of the last years for Thomson in CL ko stage:

      2010-11
      Barcelona - Shakhtar

      2011-12
      Leverkusen - Barcelona

      2012-13
      Milan - Barcelona

      ;)

      Delete
    5. Mohamed A.Fattah18/2/13 10:40

      hahahah ...Nice notice Chefren ;) :)

      Delete
  8. Anonymous18/2/13 10:38

    Thompson and Collum the same day. Nonsense.
    And yesterday Cllattenburg at City-Leeds U. and
    tomorrow Porto-Málaga. All is absurd at UEFA.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mohamed A.Fattah18/2/13 10:53

      I think Clattenburg appointment is too much strange. In case of injury in yesterday match in FA Cup then what will be the situation for Tomorrow match. Any body knows ?

      On Wednesday appointment for Scottish referees could be accepted because of match importance & UEFA point of view. I don't see any miss here....

      Delete
  9. Anonymous18/2/13 12:52

    I think that there are 17 referees at Europe best that Thompson and Collum. But, Colina and Hugh Dallas....

    ReplyDelete
  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Great appointment for Thomson !!! My only bet was for Kassai and Cakir !!!!
      And Great responsability for Collum too, under Collina' s eyes. No Skomins as for my guess. Do you think thta Stark, Proenca and Velasco will be appointed for CL return leg even if they officiate EUrope League in this stage ?
      For me many names better than Clattenburg

      Delete
    2. I guess Velasco is a nearly sure name, perhaps for Bayern-Arsenal?

      Delete
  11. I wonder who wont get a KO stage from this referees:
    Martin Atkinson (ENG), Olegário Benquerenca (POR),Cüneyt Cakir (TUR), Jonas Eriksson (SWE), Viktor Kassai (HUN), Pavel Královec (CZE), Björn Kuipers (NED), Stéphane Lannoy (FRA),Pedro Proenca (POR), Nicola Rizzoli (ITA), Gianluca Rocchi (ITA), Damir Skomina (SVN), Wolfgang Stark (GER),Carlos Velasco Carballo (ESP).

    Most probably Atkinson ,Benquerenca , Stark and Lannoy without KO match in Champions League but then we still have 10 referees for 8 matches ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think one of the Italians won't get a round of 16 match either. Kuipers perhaps only with a qf (?)

      Delete
    2. "My guess" is to exclude from CL match following officials:
      Rocchi, Atkinson, Eriksson, Lannoy, Benquerenca and Kujpers.

      Top clash Real-M UTD; Barca-Milan; Bayern- ARS to Kassai, Cakir and Skomina

      Delete
  12. It was rumoured here that Eriksson would get a Europa League match on the 21st, which match do you guys think he might get?

    ReplyDelete
  13. I would say Steaua - Ajax or Benfica - Leverkusen.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Arteta must be off, that was more than yellow.
    Sagna made a gesture indicating that he thinks Moen needs glasses. That's unsporting behaviour and should have been yellow, if Moen sees it. And then it's the second yellow.
    Also a wrong reading of the situation when Walcott committed a studs-up foul on Dante, but Arsenal got the free-kick..and for your info, Schweinsteiger got yellow for complaining, not for the foul.
    All in all, I sometimes had the worry Moen could lose control, don't know whether someone shares this thought.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've liked his performance.

      Considered the occasion and atmosphere very well for me. And crucially, remained as objective as possible.

      Delete
    2. I think he is doing very well for the second half.Fitness, awareness and foul recognition is wonderful.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous19/2/13 23:33

      Despite the "wrong" corner, i think it was a good performance. He should be kept in mind for further matches. Of course, the gesture of sagna wasn´t correct but difficult to identify from distance.

      By the way, german reporter said something interesting: "In Norway there is a winter break in season since three months, so Moen didn´t have a lot of matches the last week". I would agree because it can be dangerous if the ref is not in the flow...

      Delete
    4. On the other hand, he has more time to prepare for this match. And it could also explain why Moen was able to whistle two UEFA games within 5 days. At least considering his fitness, it was no problem.

      Delete
  15. Wrong corner kick awarded by Moen... Led to Arsenal goal. Crucial mistake!

    ReplyDelete
  16. Replies
    1. Did it affect the score?

      Delete
    2. Anonymous19/2/13 23:13

      did it affect the outcome of the game?

      Delete
    3. It did. In these type of matches every scored goal is very very important. If this was the second leg, or the final match then you would be right. If Arsenal score 3 goals in Munich and Bayern can't score one then you will see if it affected outcome of the game.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous20/2/13 02:47

      Match observers only and mark the present match; there is no category or criteria for considering a decision that has lasting effect outside of the match officiated. If Arsenal do go on to win the tie, Mr. Moen's mark will not be subsequently revised and lowered, his mark is independent of all other external factors. Although it is a mistake, it is not a "match critical error" as defined by our guidelines.

      A match critical error must be one of the following:
      A “Critical Match Incident” must be one of the following:
      • Denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO) dealt with incorrectly
      • A clear and obvious serious foul play/violent conduct send off not correctly
      dealt with
      • Not calling a penalty kick that is obvious or incorrectly awarding a penalty kick
      that is clearly not
      • Incorrectly allowing a goal that should be disallowed or not allowing a goal
      that should be given (including offside decisions for assistant referees)
      • Not sending off a player after he/she has received a second yellow card
      • Blatant incorrect application of the Laws of the Game

      Delete
    5. Anonymous20/2/13 02:53

      I apologize for the need to remain anonymous as I realize this can prove frustrating. However, in this case I speak on behalf of CONCACAF as my position permits me and I am almost certain than UEFA observers adopt the same protocols. Cheers!

      Delete
    6. Anonymous20/2/13 02:57

      By the way the above list is best summarized by the following link from the US Soccer Federation.
      http://www.massref.net/assessorforms/CriticalIncidentMarking.pdf
      I hope this clears things up!

      Delete
    7. Thanks Anonymous. It is very explanatory. I am glad we had a chance to discuss such a position here. This helps us to understand things better as we move further in our soccer career.
      It is also very nice to note that people from CONCACAF are following UEFA matches and comments about the referees. Thanks again.

      Delete
  17. Anonymous19/2/13 22:39

    Very good performance by Moen!

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous19/2/13 22:52

    Very, very good performance by Moen!

    If I am allowed to change the subject - there were a lot of discussions concerning Erikssons yellow card issued to Karagounis for diving during EURO 2012... UEFA evaluated the situation as "inconclusive" and therefore mentioned it as a correct decision in the report, as appose to what many of us thought.

    How did Clatts do tonight?

    ReplyDelete
  19. I said because it‘s not important goal.Bayern will win in a second match,too :)
    Btw,of course its crucial.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh yeah, if you think about that, I agree Bayern will eliminate Arsenal easily. At least it looked like that. I tried to think in a different way for the corner kick, but it's like calling a wrong penalty kick because of the consequence. Otherwise, (I just watched the second half) he looked like a brilliant referee, with some small areas for improvement.

      Delete
  20. Anonymous19/2/13 23:01

    Sorry but i don't see the difference between a wrong corner kick with or without a goal. In both occasions the mistake is the same?

    ReplyDelete
  21. I will be able to say something about Clattenburg tomorrow, making the report.
    Unluckily, it seems that the only goal of the match (therefore 100% crucial) was affected by a slight offside position (at least the head was ahead). What do you think? Here the pic:

    http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3171/85pqncrx_jpg.htm

    In my opinion very difficult situation to evaluate, if you watch the whole action, you notice that Moutinho his coming from behind, therefore Beck is able to wait, not raising the flag. I will be in trouble, evaluating this situation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. *is coming from behind


      sorry!

      Delete
    2. Anonymous19/2/13 23:16

      I think the assistant is correct to not flag for offside in this instance. ARs are always instructed to not flag if in doubt, and judging by the circumstances here there is no was Beck could be 100% sure and therefore no call is the right call.

      Delete
    3. But you cannot have doubts in a case like that, that was 0,5-1 metre offside..I think benefit of the doubt counts for much less distances.

      Delete
  22. Anonymous19/2/13 23:05

    And yes, Moutinho scored 1-0 from an offside position... Close, but 100% offside.

    And no, a corner kick decision can never be evaluated as a crucial mistake by UEFA or FIFA... Only by some random guys at the internet... Come on!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Random guys are the guys who post as Anonymous. I am not UEFA, nor FIFA and not a professional observer. We express our opinions here, under our names.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous19/2/13 23:39

      I'm very sorry - I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else! I read my previous post again now and I noticed that it looked pretty harsh, which was not my intention. Again - I'm very sorry! I am a Swedish referee and I'm not anonymous for any special reason.

      How ever, a corner kick decision can never be evaluated as a crucial mistake, no matter how wrong it is.

      Delete
    3. Agree with Swedish referee. It's corner. It must be penalty, goal-scoring situation, red card, crossing the line issue, no more. We must all agree that chances to score from corner kick (not from center) are very small. It must be center at first, than good shot - too much for crucial mistake description.

      Second thing, this minimal offside wouldn't be crucial mistake here in Poland. It will be called as crucial mistake in CL. The same as in Lille - BATE and Listkiewicz call. No crucial mistake in Poland, but crucial mistake for UEFA observer. The offside can be by half a foot to accept missing it by assistant referee in CL/EL. No more.

      In a sum:
      a) wrong corner kick is not crucial mistake,
      b) such minimal offside missed is crucial mistake (unless, the referee got very kind observer, what is rare at this level).

      Regards!

      Delete
    4. I thought about it and tend to agree with you all about the situation. Good Summary Relaxed Man. Thanks.
      I think UEFA will take the offside situation as crucial because they want the referees to be perfect in K.O stage matches.
      Swedish referee, thanks for clarification.

      Delete
    5. Have you a mail-box, Turan? Can you write to me? hvanderdembowiak@gmail.com
      I have some infos from a source which I can't post here and would be nice to talk about it ;)

      Delete
  23. Thank you for the info, Relaxed Man.
    I will probably evaluate it as a crucial mistake, I'm sorry for Beck but a big match (CL knockout) means also big responsibility. And I repeat myself, I can also undesrtand why he didn't raise the flag: Moutinho came from behind and it was just a second, he went in slight offside.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ;) some authorities have the same opinion

      Delete
  24. Report for Clattenburg is read, Admin will upload it later.
    Mark for Clattenburg is 8,2. Nothing extra-ordinary for him.
    7,9 for Beck, since he made a crucial mistake.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Concerning Moen, the first half was to my mind poor, the second half apart from the wrong corner very good. But a performance cannot be "very good" with a critical error - and come on, it does not matter whethe it is theoretically no crucial mistake - which had a visible impact on the result. Supporters and both teams unequivocally recognized it as a huge error, whether 7.9 or not, that's not the point. Furthermore, please have a look at Arteta's foul..it was red. Studs-up, total violence, no chance to get the ball. Clear serious foul play for me. After the 60th minute, it was really good, but the fouls and cards were also quite obvious (Arsenal really played in a hard manner)..
    I however think it would be better to appoint Moen for a EL semifinal, and not for any further CL match this season.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Which is the critical error? The Arteta foul?

      Of course it could be red, but again in context of the particular scenario and 'game management' to that point, I think YC was correct.

      My mark for Moen would be high 8's.

      On Beck agree with all comments. Lining is indeed cruel at times. His view clearly blocked. He remains in the top two assistants in England, mind, and he will be the most disappointed.

      Glad to hear Clatts did well. Big future.

      Delete
    2. The corner is a critical error. When I say "critical", I do not care how UEFA or any other federation defines "crucial mistakes". A wrong corner leading to a goal - common sense, supporters, teams, players see that as a huge mistake, but UEFA perhaps not.

      And you are absolutely right mentioning the particular scenario and "game management". Arsenal got 2 goals, were frustrated, committed three harsh fouls in a row and then the Arteta foul. And Moen did not protect Bayern's players. Is that "game management"? And even in the second half, Arsenal did not stop hard fouls, both further yellow cards to Arsenal players were closer to red than to "no card" - surely their colour was totally right.

      Delete
    3. I think he protected them well enough - hence my word 'objective' above, as I thought the Arsenal fans were incredibly vocal and harsh from around 15 mins to Moen.

      Focusing fully on the job at hand, Moen was able to whistle for 2/3 of the game's total fouls against Arsenal, using 5 cautions in the process. Even with the mistake that led to the wrong corner, I can't honestly see a poor mark at all for the Norwegian.

      Delete
    4. That depends on the assessment of the foul committed by Arteta. But I was not talking about a mark now, I want to stress that for the third time. I refered to the general impression the public received of Moen yesterday - surely referees and UEFA should not be interested in that, but that was what I talked about.
      And Turan mentioned it above, Moen's gestures, positioning and fitness were amazing.

      Delete
    5. According to the UEFA.com statistics, Bayern Munchen committed 19 fouls and Arsenal 13 fouls. http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000348/match=2009588/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000348/2009588/pitch-view
      In accordance with this statistics your statement about 2/3 of the fouls against Arsenal would be not correct.

      Delete
    6. Right, I also had the impression that Arsenal committed less fouls than Bayern, but the fouls' intensity was significantly larger.
      We have not told about the assistant referees so far - nothing special I think. Except Andas' slip onto the ground ;) Johnsen had a good movement, he seemed very active, and Hafsas failed in the only situation he had to solve.

      Delete
  26. And I forgot to say that even if the missed corner was no crucial mistake, one should ask the question what exactly Mr Hafsas was doing last night. It was clearly visible for him..

    ReplyDelete
  27. Hi Martin how are you?

    Poor turn of phrase, sorry. I guess my point was broadly about his courage and bravery. To have equal fouls in 1st half and then similar by the end is a statement in its own right. His resilience to home factors was quite something; extremely consistent for both teams.

    Nic

    You stated that the 1st half was 'poor', and that the public would not be convinced with Moen overall. I am simply disagreeing. Superb fitness, body language as you say, but vitally, control.

    Similar to Webb style one might say - but I know you aren't such a fan of this style! :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. About the "poor" - regarding the yellow card which was for me straight red, a missed unsporting behaviour that seemed to be quite clear (he surely missed Sagna's gesture) and my impression that he did not create an awareness of how serious the fouls have been led to the word "poor", right.
      But you got me wrong, I did not say the public was not convinced. I said that the public recognized an important error (the 1-2), even if we and UEFA do not call it a classical "crucial mistake", that's all..

      Now to a mark: if we accept Arteta's yellow as ok, and if the wrong corner kick is no crucial mistake, then I would say 8.4 would be suitable. But that's only maths.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous20/2/13 21:01

      Admin,

      I realize that the way UEFA evaluates a match and the way the general public evaluates a match offer clear contradictions. Putting all "technical" observer jargon aside, I agree with you that as a casual viewer of the match, I was not overly-impressed. However, in a capacity as a formal observer, I would say his performance was "acceptable" and nothing more. The Arteta foul could have been dealt with in a variety of ways all considered acceptable (red card included). As was stated somewhere earlier, referees are judged by their ability to get the big decisions correct. While this may prove troubling to the casual viewer, observers and referees will consistently register "acceptable" performances so long as they avoid "match critical incidents" (which I think we have already covered in enough detail).

      Delete
    3. Thanks Anonymous for that comment, you expressed what I had tried to express. Interesting remark and I think it will aid us a lot.

      Delete
  28. Anonymous21/2/13 01:18

    Admin: First of all, compliments for an excellent blog. Superb job and always interesting!

    Secondly - often at this blog, I see people complaining about fouls that should have been red, when the referee - in this case a UEFA ELITE referee and one of the greatest talents in the world right now - "only" issues a yellow... Why do you think that an absolute majority of the greatest referees, especially in the last couple of years - the once who handle the big matches and finals - are the ones that doesn't give red in these situations? Many of you guys write about how you hate "feeling the game referees" but it doesn't seem like UEFA or FIFA share this opinion.

    It is especially interesting to see how you can write about "the public impression" in some situations (like now) and in other situations completely reject the common opinion when people complaints about straight red cards for similar situations like the one we are discussing now.

    You have to understand that you can't always follow the rule book... Common sense, as you also mentioned above, is always more important if you want to succeed. Artetas foul above is not a red card in CL knock out stage. Simple as that.

    I'm not an international referee yet, but I've had an international observer once and have a mentor who belongs to the UEFA ELITE group, and my (limited) experience tells me that UEFA is far more satisfied when one of their referees shows a yellow card to Arteta for the above mentioned situation and the majority of the football world doesn't even mention it compared to when Tagliavento shows a (from the common mans view) controversial red card and creates international headlines, even though FIFA LoTG supports his decision.

    Have a great weekend, guys! Regards from Sweden

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1. Collina often states that studs-up tackle must be punished by red cards. Zero tolerance.

      2. If he states it, why should we look for other instructions than that said by the biggest authority in football refereeing world.

      3. Many referees in national competition use his instructions very seriously. In example, Szymon Marciniak in Poland, who got the highest average mark from all referees in Poland. He's praised for being extremely harsh with studs-up tackles. Not only in Poland! Only see his palmares in the last season knowing he was 2nd Category. See observers which he had. It's very common opinion that Marciniak's final target is Elite Category and CL big career. Said it Michał Listkiewicz, friend of Collina.

      4. Some referees used to do in contrary to instructions. In example, Howard Webb, Viktor Kassai, now Svein Oddvar Moen, etc. I think that position of some referees due to extra-ordinary personality of referee and his great skills in communication, make some referees untouchable. He will never get serious consequences being experienced Elite referees. See poor performances of Proenca (UEFA), Webb (ENG)...

      5. I think everyone have also an individual view. It's not strange that most of us follow Collina words because he's the biggest authority. It's not strange that most of us fully agree with statement that nasty studs-up tackles should be strictly punished by straight red cards. Football pitch is not a good place to do such things that endanger opponents for suffering serious injuries.

      6. However, one can ask Mr Collina and other authorities whe do they allow to not following instructions given by boss by their referees? Where is the consistency? What is a reason to say such things if it's no matter when referee issue red or yellow card for such tackle...?

      7. We must also know that not every situation on the field is black or white. Some are grey... If situation on the pitch is considered by observer as grey, he can't decrease a mark automatically to 7.9.

      8. My personal statement: I think that Arteta's yellow card was more red than yellow. However, I think that it was that grey situation. Moen could have given red or yellow, gave the latter and it's his interpretation. I think the referee interpretation was allowed in this case, it was not 100% red card which just must have been issued. However, I would give Mr Moen 8.2 mark for this incident because I would like to see him giving the red instead of yellow and a still minor inconsistency was to detect.

      9. Have a great weekend too! Thanks for praising the Niclas' work and our small(?) input in this project. Thanks for sharing your views too, they are really needed here! Cheers!

      Delete
    2. Thank you for your opinions Swedish referee. We appreciate every feedback we can get on this blog.
      In my opinion Arteta's foul is not "Simple as that" as you had said. It is more complicated and the referee had to consider all the aspects of the game befire making a decision. Relaxed man pointed out very well here but I also want to emphasize. The match atmosphere, the level of frustration and the importance of the tackle are all considered. And my last idea was, did the player go for the ball? Does he have control over his body when he lunges himself to the opponent? What is the intent of the player? And so on.Considering all these questions, I still go with a red more than a yellow. But this doesn't mean yellow is not correct. Referee knew how to sell his call and at the end it seemed like players accepted the call.
      Regards from USA.

      Delete
    3. I agree with all you three.
      Please also recognize that nobody of us has ever claimed to have THE right view on the situations, we cannot deal with the highest degree of professionalism and it is not our aim. Therefore we depend on comments like your's (@ Swedish referees) also as an issue of debate.
      What we present in form of comments here is just our opinion bolstered with arguments in favour or against, to achieve a discussion. I refuse to believe that refereeing at this level is a subject only directly involved people can assess or talk about, it's one facet of international football and if someone of us, including me, has a wrong view on a situation, that might happen, then convince us, we are always open for debate. But I also doubt that one can justify a yellow card only by mentioning that the concerned referee had international finals and is one of the hugest talents..we all know how good Moen is. And the most important factor is that this scene indeed was grey, so probably one can agree with Moen, also against the background that we have not achieved one clear assessment of the situation with replays, while Moen only had 1 second to decide on the pitch.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous21/2/13 17:12

      This is what I love the most about this blog - always great discussions with quality.

      I agree with many of your opinions, and I can really respect also the opinions that I don't share fully.

      First of all I have to say that it was just wrong of me to say "simple as that" regarding the Arteta situation - it is neither simple or clear. Personally I think that a yellow card is the right decision in a match like this, though, but as always it is just my opinion and not a fact.

      Relaxed Man highligts something very interesting in his point #6, which was also what I meant in my first post above, even though perhaps I was pretty unclear - FIFA, UEFA and Collina (who is indeed the highest authority in our wonderful part of football) always states that studs up fouls = red card, but doesn't really seems to agree with themselves when it really matters and these fouls accur... I know, to use an example, for a fact that Collina observed a match including a foul that is very similar to the situations that UEFA uses in their video material at courses regarding violent fouls that in their opinion should be red, but the referee got 8.5 and the yellow card was evaluated as correct. And yes, I know that every situation is different at some way, but I hope that you understand what I mean! Very similar at least. But yeah, why do UEFA act in this way? I think we all can agree upon one thing - even though we don't know the marks for every referee, we can see just by looking at appointments and further nominations after matches including "wrong" decisions according to LoTG and UEFA instructions, that they doesn't follow their own recommendations sometimes. It probably has something to do with what Relaxed Man mentions in his point #4, but still!

      I want to make another thing clear - even though I can honestly say that I like referees that doesn't always follow the rules in every situation, I still think that it is really important to protect the players and of course I think that direct red cards for studs up fouls is needed often (more often then it is given in these days)... I just have another opinion on when it actually is serious foul play then what you guys seem to have, but that just makes the discussions even more interesting!

      Finally, regarding "feeling the game"-referees that one of you guys called it in a post a while back - I assume that you all have some experience on or at least around the pitch, based on your high knowledge... We all know that many referees can go out on the pitch with a safe approach and make their games pretty easy by focusing on foul detection prior to letting the game flow... Kind of what made Cakir successful in the early stage of his career, if you know what I mean. That is one thing. It is however a whole different thing to go out to a match with Kassais approach, which demands much more of the referee and his abilities - especially the referees charisma and leading skills. We also know that it's easier to control a game by "safeing" and therefore easier to lose control by refereeing like for example Kassai instead, but when this style really succeeds, like it did in Kassais EURO group stage between Spain and Italy, it is, at least according to my humble opinion, totally unbeatable!!!!!

      It became a pretty long text, but I hope that it's not to hard to get through! :)

      Best regards

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    5. No, it was not too long, don't worry :)

      Thanks for your words and detailed description, again, we depend on such insights and it's just great to be able to share such views.

      I never managed to express that precisely what I think about different refereeing styles. I share evry word in your last paragraph, specially your speech about Kassai. It's the more risky approach and if it works, we, as spectators, will watch more fluent and better matches. Therefore if I had to decide between two styles, I would always prefer Kassai's. And against this background, one has also to congratulate FIFA and UEFA that they have detected his abilities in the past years (even before 2008..).

      As you said Collina observed a match and gave 8.5 despite a serious foul which was not red-carded, I remember a certain hot match in Camp Nou in 2011 where he was observer ;) Don't know whether we mean the same.

      Before EURO, we had an internal agreement in our observer-group that we always go with the referee in grey zones, but there we had a different system. We are deploying UEFA's sytem for a few months only, so if we generally should continue this work, if it is appreciated by this blog's readers, then we certainly need time to improve and comments like your's.

      Have a good weekend, too.

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    6. Anonymous22/2/13 22:25

      Admin: Thank you for a great answer, as always!

      I really agree with you about Kassai and FIFA & UEFA - the man that "found" and pushed him can really be proud of himself. :)

      When we are on the subject, one must also state that the style that Kassai represents isn't for everyone - it requires really special abilities that you either have or don't have... Almost something you are born with.

      Even though I always defend the above mentioned style and prefer it, I must say that I really like that UEFA accept different styles on every level including the highest. I find it very important that every referee is allowed to build their style and find the approach that works for them based on their own personality and not something else.

      I'm pretty new at this blog, even though I sometimes read also the older posts and going through the blog, but according to my humble opinion you should continue with the UEFA scale. At least for me it is easier to understand, but perhaps I'm biased because it is the same scale that we use in Sweden and the one that is used when I referee myself and therefore the one that I'm more experienced with.

      Have a great weekend, everyone!

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    7. A post published during Euro 2012 touching on this debate: http://footballrefereeing.blogspot.de/2012/06/celebrating-diversity-at-euro-2012.html#.USiwaWfx93g

      I still have to change many labels, so the posts you can find so far via the sections at the top of the blog are only ~30% of the blog's content.

      Just to stress the risk Kassai goes: compare his Wembley final performance and Real-Bayern. He deployed the same style but the players accepted it or dealt with it in a totally different way.

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  29. Anonymous22/2/13 21:58

    Niclas, if you remember, when you started the blog, you were not very happy about Kassai, because of his reluctance to issue cards. I am happy that you changed your mind and now you seem to appreciate his modern style of refereeing.

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    Replies
    1. Quite right, although I rather criticized him for some unconcentrated performances after his CL final and his manner of refusing clear penalties (Bayern-City, Spain-Germany). I am content that we don't have robots in UEFA zone and that UEFA does not target at producing one uniform pattern of refereeing.

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    2. Anonymous23/2/13 15:51

      Clear penalty kick refused in Spain - Germany (2010 WC semi-final)???

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    3. 45th minute, Özil was fouled in the box.

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    4. Anonymous24/2/13 16:08

      Honestly, I do not remember after almost 3 years, but I do not recall any claims for a PK in that WC semi-final. If that foul indeed occured, that would have been a serious mistake. What are other bloggers' opinions?

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    5. Unfortunately no replay. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HChf4dufZFg#t=82s

      It suited to Kassai's line in a way who only gave four free-kicks until this point of time if I remember correctly. Nonetheless, replays indicated that it should have been whistled. But that did not matter, Germany did not lose due to Kassai.

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    6. Replay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bWKlvPDDC1k#t=3564s

      I have to correct myself. It should have been red for dogso but only free-kick (happened 0,5 m in front of the box)

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    7. Interesting situation, I hadn't memory about that.
      But watching the replay I have difficulties to understand where is the contact. I think we can accept Kassai decision, and by the way it was out of penalty area.

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    8. The contact, which obviously was available, caused that Özil's one leg hit the other one which made him fall.

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    9. Forgot to say that: and therefore, I do not think one can accept his decision - but anyway, one should not be resentful. If at all, then this way the only small black spot on his excellent World Cup appearance.

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    10. FYI, the contact happened in 59:38 in the video I posted above

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