June 18, 2014

Discussion About Refereeing at Matchday 7



GROUP B, Match 20
18 June 2014, 18:00 CET
Estádio Beira Rio, Porto Alegre
AUSTRALIA - NETHERLANDS
Referee: Djamel HAIMOUDI (ALG) 
Assistant Referee 1: Rédouane ACHIK (MAR)
Assistant Referee 2: Abdelhak ETCHIALI (ALG)
Fourth Official: Bakary GASSAMA (GAM)
Standby Assistant Referee: Evarist MENKOUANDE (CMR)
Blog Referee Observer: Chefren (ITA)


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GROUP B, Match 19
18 June 2014, 21:00 CET
Maracanã - Estádio Jornalista Mário Filho, Rio de Janeiro
SPAIN - CHILE
Referee: Mark GEIGER (USA)
Assistant Referee 1: Sean Mark HURD (USA)
Assistant Referee 2: Joe FLETCHER (CAN)
Fourth Official: Nawaf SHUKRALLA (BHR)
Standby Assistant Referee: Yaser ABDULLA TULEFAT (BHR)
Blog Referee Observer: Thomas H. (NED)

GROUP A, Match 18
18 June 2014, 00:00 CET
Arena Amazônia, Manaus
CAMEROON - CROATIA
Referee: Pedro PROENÇA (POR)
Assistant Referee 1: Bertino MIRANDA (POR)
Assistant Referee 2: Tiago TRIGO (POR)
Fourth Official: Walter LÓPEZ (GUA)
Standby Assistant Referee: Leonel LEAL (CRC)
Blog Referee Observer: Carlos (COL)

80 Comments:

  1. Haimoudi is doing well but his whistling is disturbing..

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  2. Missed foul by Cahill and missing YC around minute 9 would be points of criticism.

    A paramount example of carelessly enlarging the body surface. Correct deliberate handball penalty in my opinion.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous18/6/14 19:18

      Was that really deliberate? His hand was in a natural position close to his body.

      To me it seems Haimoudi only gave the pen after the Aussie claimed it

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    2. I also had the feeling he first waved it away but then gave it after the AUS players protested.

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    3. Anonymous19/6/14 09:54

      sorry but he touched the ball with his hand an look how far his arm and hand is from his body : http://i.imgur.com/gXSgC5r.jpg and he stoped a dangerous action to australia ! pénalty ! clear

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  3. I think it is not about whistling now, terrible penalty decision by Haimoudi. How can it be possible to see required criteria there ?

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    1. Anonymous18/6/14 19:24

      I agree, this is one of the worst handball penalty decisions I saw in my 24 years career of refereeing. natural position of the hand and ball came from very short distance, Wrong decision for me.

      André from Germany

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    2. Inside UEFA, this should be a penalty. The defender had his arm too widely extended from the body and therefore carelessly risked a handball. This was in detail explained by Herbert Fandel in a German TV channel, talking about UEFA's directive to the national association. Please also check the video B66 of UEFA's Referee Assistance Program if you have it on your harddrive.

      Inside FIFA, as Carlos from Árbitro Internacional has told me, the hand position / enlarging the body surface plays no role according to the instructions given to the World Cup Referees. Based on that, this penalty would be wrong.

      Saying that this has been the worst handball decision ever is not in line with the latest trend concerning handball imo.

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    3. I say you call it they will accept the penalty, you don't call it they will accept the no call.

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    4. So you would really say that his arm is in a natural position here?
      Look how far out it is from his body:
      http://imgur.com/gXSgC5r

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    5. The hand is extended yes, but it is part of normal human movement when you're running. He was extending his leg to block a possible cross, therefore his left hand went up. A penalty? Yes (Extending the body). Not a penalty? Yes (Natural movement of hands). This is my opinion.

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    6. Both for UEFA and FIFA, it should not be a penalty, ı have no doubt about that. What else position can a player keep his arm in that situation? Also i do not think he has an idea to enlarge his body, he was concentrated on the ball. BTW apart from that, Hamioudi's whistling style was not effective, we heard same voice in every kind of faul. Also he missed a clear YC for an off the ball offence in the second half.

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    7. CORE REF, ask Mr. Zbigniew Przesmycki, UEFA referee observer (present sometimes in CL too). :)

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    8. As mentioned, there is a 8 minute video with Herbert Fandel who explained it with video examples in a German TV show. The UEFA RAP is another device. These are sources we have to rely on as an external power.

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    9. Thanks Hubert, but i do not need to ask anyone, because this is my personal opinion. But if İ had to, i would prefer someone from committee :) BTW there is no need to discuss anymore, because if there are many different opinions, the referee is always right :)

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    10. It's really bad that even UEFA observers have different views on the handball issue. It should be finally cleared, shouldn't it?

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    11. it's true, but will never disappear. I think this is the attractive side of refereeing. Otherwise we'll have nothing to share :)
      On the other hand, UEFA instructors reduced the criteria to two:
      - enlarging the body or not
      - natural position or not...

      Delete
    12. And this is clearly what we have in Polish league and Mr. Przesmycki is right to say that our instructions are the same as UEFA (probably not as FIFA as Niclas pointed out). We had really many situations where distance was really minimal and penalty was whistled. I fully understand those instructions because many players tries to block shots with exaggeratedly outstretched hands.

      And we have a clear instructions now (as Mr. Przesmycki - our head of referee department - often emphasizes, totally same as UEFA ones): if you tries to block a shot or centre and the ball hits your hand that is outstretched, it's a penalty.

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    13. 2 thoughts on deliberate handball:

      1) Every situation is different. For every situation, your decision depends on multiple factors reaching from visual perception aspects to the final decision depending on many different aspects. It is not as easy to learn and transfer onto the pitch like offsides. As an effect, we will never have complete consistency.
      2) Deliberate handball depends on many factors which make it irrealistic to believe that there can be one catalogue of criteria which is strictly followed. For us it is easy to analyze, but everybody who once stepped on a football field knows that your mind processes this decision-taking actually fully automatically.

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    14. I am a referee and just last month we had a training session on handballs which was a FIFA video with about 20 incidents of handballs. I can say based on those situation that FIFA does not take into account that the hand is away from the body and enlarging the area.

      The main criteria to consider are hand to ball or ball to hand, time to react, natural or unnatural position and intent (is the arm braced or loose). For this situation it fails all 4 criteria for handball (ball to hand, no time to react, natural position, arm loose).

      A more extreme example shown to us of the hand being away from the body is AUS-SRB from 2010 WC were a header hits Tim Cahill's hand, which is fully outstretched when the ball hits, is consider by FIFA to not be a handball.

      Delete
    15. Anonymous19/6/14 10:56

      unbelievable for me the many discussions here because of this incorrect penalty. Even by reputed observers. Never and ever penalty kick. Taken on hands. Clear errors of the referees.

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    16. Anonymous19/6/14 10:59

      the Algerians is not ready for a World Cup. are we glad that Netherlands has won anyway.

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  4. Not a penalty for me...

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  5. Too many whistles, too many fouls.

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  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    Replies
    1. bad advantage in 71-72min
      bad foul desicion in 75min

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  7. Good foul detection, for me correct penalty call as the he enlarges his body surface. It wasn't deliberate but it blocked a pass. You can give it, for me no mistake.

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    Replies
    1. But it's only handball when the contact is deliberate.

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  8. Well, in the German ligue it would have been a penalty. Stil not a crucial mistake IMHO.

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  9. To me not a very convincing appearance in a easy match by Haimoudi. Foul detection mostly good, but some strange decisions.
    Furthermore he almost lost control a few times in the second half, that could have been avoided easily by better player management and foul detection.
    And finally the penalty wasn't a deliberate handball in my opinion and therefore a crucial mistake.

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    Replies
    1. I agree, he even took a very important adv. away in the end, and had no clear line at all. Disappointing pperformance, bad average in an easy game, around 8,1.

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  10. Anonymous18/6/14 20:41

    hey, why are we so quick to criticise? Not on this occasion, but all over the last week. It seems like we have so much better referees here, who should be at Brazil right now.
    Try to find a solution. For me, positioning was problem at that situation. With wider diagonal, he would have made his decision quicker and appear more confident.
    For me also not a mistake. Defender leaves his arm out and clearly enlarges his body surface. If we allow that, the defenders will keep their hand in such ''natural'' position and expect to get away with it.

    / BC

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    Replies
    1. May be, if we were not from UEFA :)

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  11. This is the clear handball for me and I would call it a crucial mistake if decision was other way round. :) Maybe FIFA evaluated Roldan's non-whistled penalty as a mistake?

    Overall, a very pedantic performance as we could've expected. Simply good performance from Mr. Haimoudi, don't criticize referees if they don't make crucial mistakes and control is of decent standard. :) As for whistles and pedantic approach, I would recall the 2010 WC slogan - celebrate the diversity!

    The second game for Algerian/Moroccan team should come in 3rd leg.

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    Replies
    1. Okay - but the performance you call pedantic was not only pedantic but consisting of inconsistencies (missed fouls and soft fouls, how does that go together?) and many small mistakes.

      As mentioned earlier, the FIFA instructions were clear and did not include enlarging the body surface as a criteria. On UEFA level I agree with the penalty.

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    2. Anonymous19/6/14 09:51

      sorry but Look how far out it is from his body : http://i.imgur.com/gXSgC5r.jpg and he stoped a dangerous action to australia ! pénalty

      Delete
    3. Anonymous19/6/14 11:04

      the logic must one say, that this hands not should be punished. Where should the Defender to do his arm? This Polish point of view is incredible.

      Delete
  12. Anonymous18/6/14 21:11

    1) distance was close aprox 2m, so the distance criteria -no penalty
    2) natural position - very doubtful, hand is far away from the body, he is enlarging his body, but where to put hands in this situation? - for me this criteria is pro penalty
    3) where is the ball going, well there is certanly a chance for Australia to shoot on the goal if this ball passes, so penalty ok.

    All in all, calling a penalty is ok, also not calling. In this situation observer should give the right to the referee, so it is nonsence to say that was a crucial mistake. For example, you gave Rizzoli right to whistle a penalty because it was very fast and thete was a slight contact, forced by spains player. Hanball is obvious, so no crucial mistake....

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  13. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  14. Anonymous18/6/14 22:02

    You all are more prone to criticize non-European referees than European ones... Sad...

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    Replies
    1. Luckily half of the readers are from countries outside Europe.

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  15. Anonymous18/6/14 22:28

    Geiger, who's having a good game imo, also seems to have lost his fifa badge, like Pitana earlier.

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  16. I could now imagine
    AUS-SPA: Roldan
    NED-CHI: Nishimura

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    Replies
    1. The loser of NED-CHI will likely play Brazil. No way Nishimura will touch that game. And no way it will be given to anyone who is not slated to do a knockout match already. It's a big game, that will have to be handled delicately. I could see that as Eriksson's second game. Possibly Irmatov if it's not a European.

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    2. Agreed on Roldán (or Pitana), I would also prefer Irmatov for NED-CHI.

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    3. In my opinion, Irmatov or Rodriguez. But.. Are we sure that the Irmatov AR2's mistake wouldn't send this referee team home?
      In group G we could have a similar situation, if Portugal losses. In this case POR-GHA will be a match between two teams that can't reach Round of 16...

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  17. Geiger was good, but he should be more stern with dissent and use his authority more.

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  18. Well, perhaps we have the first referee ready for a KO stage match. A bvig surprise for me Mark Geiger, congratulations to him. He was in control in a quite tense match. Both assistant referees were really good: excellent call in first half by Hurd, the same in second half by Fletcher.
    What we can discuss is "just" an ironical applause made right in front of AR1 (might have been at least YC, but Pedro was right, there was a missed foul) and then a missed YC in the last minutes of the match (SPA on Torres). I still think this was due to Busacca instructions, so overall a very good impression. I guess that Geiger started his WC without big expectations, but now he is there...

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    Replies
    1. Not such a big surprise. Geiger had some very good games in the past, especially the Gold Cup 2013 Quarterfinal Panama - Cuba. Correct hand penalty, correct RC for SFP, good onside decisions and very good foul detection. A man with a future and maybe the "Irmatov" of this World Cup.

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    2. With this convoncing performance Geiger ready for half-final or final, and when Rodriguez and Aguilar keep on doing well, the odds for betting on a final-referee from Mittel-/Northamerica are quite low with good reason ...

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  19. Very nice job from all officials - during and even before the match :)
    https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/EA440669DB1091124290860244992_2e351df77df.0.4.8697433233391480796.mp4?versionId=21w8ImN249t3jbHLfsH5fOueeoJwgNCk

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    1. He recovered really fast though :)

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  20. Very bad throw-in management by Proença and Tiago Trigo at 35'...

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    Replies
    1. What was happened?

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    2. Anonymous19/6/14 00:46

      Advantage is allowed in this situation. Great red by Proenca

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    3. Yes but this advantage was not leading immediately to an important action, furthermore Cameroon player was unpunished for his behavior, I think that it was a clear YC.

      @Federico A player from Cameroon disturbed the opponent while he was executing a throw-in, in a very blatant manner. It was almost impossible to play the ball. Questionable choice to give advantage.

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    4. Ok, thanks. Proenca's mark so far?

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    5. advantage for me ok, but still the Cameroon player should get his card afterwards. in some situations Proenca more "defensive" than normally, I have seen him better, for me at minimum 1-2 missed YC for rough play in the begin...

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  21. Well spotted violent conduct and red card to CMR #6.

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    Replies
    1. Sheer stupidity. Proenca left with no choice.

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  22. Clearest red card ever. However, for my taste CRO #3 had to be booked and also there was a missed foul as two CRO players tackle CMR #8.

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  23. Anonymous19/6/14 01:11

    OT: What whistle do you use? I noticed some referees nit using standard Fox 40, but something else, any idea ehat. Also, any experience with Fox Shark?

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    Replies
    1. I just stick with the standard Fox 40...I know Clattenburg uses something with a much more shrill tone (not sure if it is a FOX whistle)

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    2. Refs like Kuipers, Ricci, Rodriguez, etc. use this one:

      http://moltenusa.com/equipment/whistle/detail/ra0030-ks.html

      Very expensive, but they say it is like driving a ferrari in sted of a bicycle. I am going to buy it this summer and try it out next season. A friend of mine uses it, the sound is pretty amazing.

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    3. where i can buy in EUROPE?

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    4. http://www.refereeshop.co.uk/Molten-%22Valkeen%22-Premium-referee-whistle.htm?websale8=b-d-sport.allzweck_uk&pi=3-5121

      Delete
    5. I love my Fox 40 Eclipse. I guess for amateur matches players will not thank you for using the Valkeen one...slightly louder than most of the others, but ideal for professional football of course :)

      Delete
  24. CRO-MEX will be a very important match. The winning team will be qualified (very likely as runner up).
    On the other hand, how to read CMR-BRA?
    .

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    Replies
    1. Well, normally Brazil should have no problems against Cameroon and even score enough goals to hold place 1, even if Mexico wins. However it could be a challenging match, if we look at the unfair behaviour of Cameroon yesterday and the fact that Brazil is the home team.
      And CRO-MEX should get a experienced referee, Webb maybe?

      Delete
  25. Missed RC for Assou-Ekotto for a headbutt against his own teammate. But ok, that was not mandatory. Good performance, easy match.

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  26. Proenca made his typical error twice. Turning back to almost all players. Firstly in 6' (CMR-CRO clash in penalty area), then in 90' (conflict in CMR team, cards needed?). As for his leniency, we must blame Busacca and Co., no refs...

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  27. OK, this is actually a big error - of course, not influencing the final outcome, but still... And if we add to this missed scene from 6', we have at least a big point for improvement...

    https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/7A37BDB0EF1091194758417801216_249250a3ebb.0.4.12221281595409290151.mp4?versionId=uAt.65NTGpzgso_LY93qTKZutwGzXqFR

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  28. Proença did well. I agree with you, that headbutt was not a mandatory red card. Excellent team work and foul detection. Good YC in the last minutes of the game, after giving the advantage rule.

    Luís Almeida

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  29. Anonymous19/6/14 02:08

    Have you ever refereed a match. Have you ever heard for common sense. If referee would apply laws 100% we would have 5 ref cards 5 penalzies in every match. Referee must be tolerant, for example, i think it is great Cakir showed only threr or four cards in a match. If he applied laws 100% there would be 4 yc in first five minutes. It is easy to watch replay 5 times and then comment something. When evaluating siruations you should not consider only what you see on a video, you have to think what would you do in a referee place. That is why observers are ex referees... Some of you are to pedantic... come on, whistling a foul that maybe was not a foul evaluating as crucial mistake because goal was scored. I believe we are all referees, so allways in favour of referee. You have to much crucial mistakes in my oppinion... Protect the ref always when possible.

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    Replies
    1. I like the passion.

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    2. I agree with most you said. But your last sentences express a certain dishonesty about constructive analysis of referee performances that leads to ignorance of their partly obvious mistakes. Your approach is exactly the one which makes us "distant" from, maybe "arrogant" for and sometimes even "hated" by plenty of "common football fans".

      And I'm also a referee and want to get better by getting told what I did wrong. Just awarding 8.4s all day long does not help anyone. What I would have done in Rizzoli's case is a) sending-off Diego Costa and b) awarding a direct free-kick in favour of Casillas before the 1-3 goal - of course if I had seen both from my position. And Rizzoli savoured these good views.

      All the crucial mistakes we assigned in the reports are 100% clear for us, we always backed the match officials when we saw room and arguments for it. I don't understand the problem.

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  30. Anonymous19/6/14 10:09

    Can someone tell me where is the defender's intention to play the ball with his hand? TERRIBLE DECISION and 100% NO PENALTY

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  31. Anonymous19/6/14 12:20

    Spain Chile game 74:40 Mark Greiger missed red card IMO, Spain player Silva kicked Chile player in the stomach, referee had a good view, but waved play on. He had a overall good game, just that one moment I found interesting, because no replays were shown.
    http://livefootballvideo.com/fullmatch/world/world-cup/spain-vs-chile-2

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  32. Hahaha, anyone detected that:

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=662914780467088&set=pb.164281126997125.-2207520000.1403173932.&type=1&theater

    I wonder, who would've been booked/sent off, 20 or 19? :D

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